akk | On behalf of the Sumeragi Twins...

If you followed my writings once in a while, you probably noticed that I'm one of one those entirely nitpicking persons who like to have their facts straight before starting to play with them. In this context, the conundrum of the Sumeragi Twins - specifically Subaru and Hokuto - was the most prominent detail left in limbo for quite a long time.

About Subaru and Hokuto.

Please keep in mind that I'm no geneticist - and certainly no specialist in twins - when reading the following!

They look alike, yet are of different gender (gendermixed twins). Fanlore often considers them identical twins, which would account to monozygotic twins (from one egg) making them gendermixed monozygotic twins (scientific article on Pubmed), which is not entirely impossible, but comes with a baggage of problems. Most notably, it requires not one but two genetic defects to come to bear: the twin pair needs to have an additional X-chromosome (XXY) and the Y chromosome must be inactive in one of them, which would then develop as a healthy female, leaving the male (Subaru) with an additional X chromosome. Both conditions are extremely rare (and monozygotic twins to start with are also).
In addition, the additional X chromosome in the male is likely to cause a low (or non-existent) fertility and lengthened limbs (which makes me wonder about later CLAMP works - esp. the xxxHolic guys - but I digress). These conditions mustn't be severe, but are likely to exist in XXY males. There are other effects listed as well, but those weren't found as conclusive as these, as far as I could find out.
A high price just to make sure that the two of them truly look alike while having different gender.

While bizygotic (from two different eggs, thus not identical) twins mustn't look alike - in fact, they can look totally different - a high likeliness is not uncommon, considering that they typically stem from the same genetic source. (Bizygotic twins with different fathers are possible, but again require additional conditions to be met, making them less likely to happen.)
Studies on identical twins are an important tool to determine what is a genetic and what is an environmental effect on the human development. Quite a few of these studies conducted before genetic testing became available had to be withdrawn, because the subjects turned out not to be identical twins when they were tested genetically later.

As far as I know from the German and English translations of TB and X, CLAMP never explicitly stated Subaru and Hokuto to be identical twins (thus monozygotic). The translation stayed safely with "twins". Personally, I prefer the more likely - and for Subaru more healthy - solution of bizygotic gendermixed twins in this context.

I ignored the Sumeragi/Kamui twinship, because I don't follow Tsubasa at all and only heard of it via fantalks. (However, their status is obvious: bizygotic, non-gendermixed.)

And now I contemplate Subaru with mustache stubble...

...drool!

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You know, I always assumed they are bizygotic twins who incidentally look very alike maybe because me and my brother look pretty alike also (no we're not twin but we both got a lot from my father and well, nearly nothing from my mother).
In Subaru and Hokuto I assumed this was even more marked by the fact they are of the same age and Subaru is a little behind in his growing up schedule (he should be taller than his sister while they look abut the same height... that or Italian boys get tall faster...) so the resemblance is more marked (Also CLAMP purposelly didn't want to differentiate them graphically or in Subaru's dream of Seishiro holding one of the Sumeragi twins we would have immediately understood he was holding Hokuto and not Subaru).

I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the fanlore because I never noticed them to expect the boys to be monozygotic twins... -_-;

However your search is very interesting! I love how much care you put in this kind of details!

I've seen the "identical twins" angle too often to ignore the possibility and so I looked into it to decide whether or not it's actually possible and what it would cost (ficwise).
My personal decision: way too much! ;)

The growth schedule is something I'd be cautious about. Growth is affected by a lot of things: food, amount of work, stress, exposure to chemicals... It's also not so that males have to get proportionally larger than their non-identical twin sister in every case. There's a not well understood genetic component, which may have expressed more strongly in the girl than in her brother. :)

LOL I guess I didn't pay it enough attention and that's why I managed to miss it... :P
(you's sound like a wise decision though)

*nods* I know the growing up schedule can be althered still here it's so common boys of that age are taller and that who isn't will yes, grow, but likely not that much, that it kind of feel weird especially considering that Subaru will grow taller, thought not as much as Seishiro... (LOL if you consider the data given in the X Premium Card & CLAMP In Wonderland 1&2 [Precious Edition] Book Subaru's shorter than me... and Seishiro is not that impressively tall either...)

:-) X Premium Card & CLAMP in Wonderland (Precious Edition) are source materials I don't include for my writing, because I didn't have access to it.
Even if I got them now, I don't think I'd alter anything. My perception of the universe is set, so to speak - with all accepted misconceptions such as Nokoru's / Seishiro's age relation. ;)

So it's material, I won't argue about. For much the same reason, I won't participate in fannish arguments about fandom details. I'm immersed in the Decagram, which origins (and is strongly based) in TBX, but due to plot development no longer identical to it. I wouldn't be able to trust my own arguments not to be based on the Decagram rather than the original TBX. My ideas might well be "burned cookies". Therefore: no discussion. :-)

Yes, I supposed so. Also the visual impression doesn't match at all with the datas given so, if I hadn't known them, I would have assumed the boys to be much taller...

Out of curiosity how tall are your Subaru and Seishiro if you ever though at that? I don't think I remember it being mentioned...

Good luck for Decagram since we're around end of FM and I know endings are the most troublesome thing usually (at least for me they are... :P)!

Seishiro: 183 - 186 cm (that's actually close to my own height, so it's easy to judge everyday difficulties). ;)

Subaru: 173 - 176 cm as an adult.

But that's just a rule of thumb. I only ever needed their size relation, which - judged by the images in X-16 on Rainbow Bridge before their fight starts - has Subaru about half a head smaller than Seishiro. That's a difference of about 10 cm.

Thank you, but it's only the ending of FM, not the ending of the Decagram, so it's actually just a little break. ;)

Well, you're nearly spot on to the truth (it's 183 for Seishiro and 173 for Subaru in case you wanted to know... and wow, you're tall... I'm only a tiny bit taller than Subaru... ;_;)

^_______________^

cool. Thanks for confirming my calculations.

I've never been to Tokyo, but if public transports are dimensioned similar to Singapore, Seishiro should do okay in the subway (though I was only only a two fingers away from the roof). And he better wears _very flat_ shoes in case he ever has to get on a bus. ;)

You're welcome!

I've never been on Singapore or Tokyo for the matter and I know I should take in account they have a different standard age but when I look at CLAMP manga Seishiro looks so tall... when here his height would be perfectly normal...

I wonder how tiny Kamui is since everyone says he's pretty short... (in TRC he and Subaru looked about the same but I'm not sure if the same is applied to XKamui and TBSubaru)

Well, there's an image of him and Subaru sitting at a table (when Subaru helps him with his lectures on campus), by which I'd judge him to be about a head shorter than Subaru. That's about 20 cm, giving a strapping 153 for Kamui, which *is* small compared to the Japanese average height of 171 cm (source: WikiAnswers).

Personally, I think of him as 155 or 156 cm, given that height judged when sitting has a larger error margin.

I went to check the pic in which Subaru's fixing Kamui's tie. Considering Subaru's looking down and Kamui's hair are all fluffy Kamui's likely a little more than half a head shorter than Subaru...

So I went to check on CLAMP In Wonderland 1&2 [Precious Edition] Book and yes, there's Kamui's height. It turned out Kamui is 162 cm so, since Subaru is 163 in TB Subaru's taller ^_- (No idea if it interests you but Fuma is 178, Yuto 180 and Satsuki 160... I though Fuma to be taller than Yuto... and Satsuki's rather short too...)

:-) I knew my Kamui assessment was a little off, since I didn't bother to search for several reference images. Luckily, it was never a crucial detail-
Thank you for the other size infos. Aside from having fix numbers now, they confirm my overall assessment of Kigai being the one closest to Sei in size (discounting the bear Kusanagi).

Do you by chance happen to have numbers for the CCD staff in X? I'm curious, whether or not my perception of size is skewed as much as my perception of age there. :-)

LOL Kusanagi is such a giant! Even Seishiro has to look up at him... Though in the manga they ended up being in the same room only once so I figure they didn't really have to deal with each other.

Not yet. I'm searching for it and it's possible adult-Akira's height was mentioned somewhere in some '20 Mensou' gadget or interview but, so far, no luck.

They don't even figure in the movie cast so they'ut of the group picture in which you can see more or less the character's heights...
Nokoru in the manga is apparently more than half a head taller than Kamui so a good guess could be 162+15=173 (though the difference doesn't seem so big in Vol 16... has Kamui finally grown up?). In vol 14 though Sorata looks taller than Nokoru with Souh taller than Sorata.
In Vol 10 he looks as the shortest of the three with Suoh being the tallest (Suoh looks taller than Akira in Vol 16 too), but since they aren't shoulder to shoulder, it can be just an impression (in vol 8 Suoh and Akira seemed to have the same height).
On an unrelated note Keiichi looks like he's a head taller than Kamui so around 172cm probably more since he's more often than not bowing down to be closer to him... so he's likely even taller tahn it looks... (somehow this make me feel as if Kamui is even shorter than he is...)

And now you made me wonder... which was your guess for the boys?

I don't have one. Since I perceive their ages differently and the manga portrays them as late teens, it doesn't make sense to judge their height by them.
My perception - which has nothing whatsoever to do with canon in this regard - is Nokoru being probably two to three finger widths smaller than Seishiro, but taller than Subaru. Suoh being equal or slightly above to Seishiro. Akira didn't feature that much, yet.

No much love for Akira then? Or it's just there wasn't space for him in your story?
Oddly enough I like him. Maybe because I think Subaru as a kid should have been pretty similar to him only more shy and not such a good cook (and, of course, not a thief either... :P)

oh, I like Akira. It's just that he wasn't relevant to my plot, yet. I suspect that is going to change when I follow the Ijyuin / Seishiro thread further.

I'll be waiting for him to act more then! (though I figure I'm in for a long waiting...)

Curious, I never thought about associating Klinefelter's with monozygotic twins, but there you go. So you are suggesting both are XXY, but Hokuto maintained her Y chromossome condensed? That would be curious, I hadn't heard of such cases. (I'll read the Pubmed article later on.)

To be honest I always ignored fandom's claimes of "identical twins" mainly because I've come to expect most people to be ignorant of scientific knowledge I consider to be basic (personal experience, many of my friends don't exactly understand what I study). Plus, I know two girls who are twins and I swore they were monozygotic until they told me otherwise (I swear I could only tell them apart due to a mole one of them had on her forearm). So if they look identical but aren't so could Subaru and Hokuto. However, it's still interesting to research possibilities, like you did. ;)

Btw, I just read the comment thread above about heights and one thing we always have to keep in mind is that average height in Japan is very different to that in Europe or the US, so parameters are quite different. Actually, their height average is similar to ours, so I can picture them with the heights CLAMP ascribed (most of the guys I've dated were around Subaru's 1.73m anyways, with the exception of an Englishman LOL).

No, I don't suggest XXY for the Sumeragi twins. I just wondered if - from a medical perspective - the fanlore could be confirmed or not. The Pubmed article describes gendermixed monozygotic twins (no Klinefelter), which have the boy healthy but the girl, having only one X showing severe symptoms. I was curious, if there was a condition (Klinefelter's) which, if it also applies, would have made it possible (as in not impossible at best). As far as I know, there's never been reported something like that. Also, judged just by probability: the probability of monozygotic twins + Kleinfelter's + condensed X chromosome in one of them amounts to one case in more than twice the number of Earth's current population. ;)

It was basically a "what if..." test. My own decision is that of "standard twins" (bizygotic, gendermixed), which just happen to look very much alike.

Regarding heights: I know. I checked their Japanese height average when I started writing, because height relations (between characters and the population average) is what you really need for writing. Numbers aren't that important. Luckily, height statistics (average height, standard deviations etc.) are a common health indicator, thus the data are easily available.
I know from experience what it means to be above average (even if it's just 10 cm). For a German woman of my generation, I *am* tall, meaning trouble getting clothes, shoes, socks... At least, I can go and buy elegant mens' clothing. A good dress shirt in yellow or turquoise refitted with appropriate blouse buttons looks better than any blouse you get for the same money over here; and the sleeves are actually long enough instead of stopping a hands width above the wrist! Similar for sleek black dress pants. ;) But buying shoes was always a nightmare as a girl!
I always pictured that as one of the reasons for the Western influence in Seishiro's lifestyle. A lot of stuff actually fit better. ;)

I figured even before JJ forced the numbers out of me that Subaru was about average height, Seishiro half a head above the average, and Kamui clearly below it. The rest was never needed (it would have been, if I 'd ever sent them shopping...) ;)

Edited Date: 2010-04-11 07:25 (UTC)

Oh, I understood that you didn't actually consider this as canon, just speculation and curiosity. :)

And my comment about heights was just a general rant, nothing aimed at you, I know you are a very thorough researcher. It's just that it's not uncommon to come across people who are disapointed by CLAMPs heights for the characters.

Eeek, I'm 12cm above our average but I've never experienced trouble with clothing as you do. And I thought I had it bad!

Yes, height rant in answer to twin rant! :D
Just like a lot of people yelp about the identical Sumeragi twins, completely ignoring that there's at least one pronounced physical canon difference: gender.
And JJ couldn't leave it be and started one of the number hunts in the community again. :::sigh:::

Regarding height & dress problems: I think it depends on the kind of clothing and how aware the manufacturers are about the differences. Over here, when it's made for my height, the wearer is expected to need also width as a woman. In short: you can't be tall, if you aren't fat. Rubbish!
I wouldn't call it problems, though. I've come to like the men's wear. The cloth is of better quality, the seams are straight, and the fitting is typically anti-smell, anti-sweat, and nicely cool (esp. in summer), and if you get good quality, you don't even have to iron the stuff. That's a comfort, I never spotted in clothes made for women. Apparently, we always have to have time to iron, and walk, and we're always too cold to sweat... (Rubbish to the power of ten!)
Even if there are now dresses for my size, I'm not likely to go back. I may not follow fashion, but I look good *and* have comfortable clothes at the same time! ;)

You know I'm a data hunter! :P

No, you're a numbers hunter. Dates, heights... I'm waiting for eye colors in RGB code. ;) (joking)

I was the same in my first fandom, but it doesn't help to get a vivid plot image. The relative dimensions between the charas are more helpful for that. So I stopped fretting that much and found writing easier.

Oh, trust me, I hunt everything, included the damn exact sentence a character said or the story behind a ghost... *sighs* I fear I'll have to disappoint you on the colors in RGB since CLAMP and the anime coudn't get an agreement... -_- (joking as well).

Oh well, I admit some data I find are completely of no use for me and I merely store them in case on a remote day I could need them for future applications... (you'll never know what could come of use...)
Most of the others instead are for my little puzzle game.
I think if they were given they should be of some use for the plot development and so I try to guess which one could be. Though I've to admit manga and anime sometimes like to throw datas at random (like when Rayearth girls introduced themselves giving their bloodtype also... the oddest chara introduction ever... even if CLAMP used it for comic relief).

It is more fun to hunt data in a consistent universe, whereas Clamp tends to ride roughshot over their own plot with their haphazard crossovers.
Of course, it's also the reason why I don't feel in the least guilty about adding 10+ years to the CCD trio to make them Seishiro's schoolmates instead of Kamui's. ;)

The bloodtype was a horoscope thingy big in Japan in the time when TB and then X were published. Character treads were justified that way (even authors listed their bloodtype along with the summary). It's a kind of public game / common superstition.

Love matches, dietary, the right shoe color - everything can be determined by bloodtype (if you believe in the silly stuff, that is).

Well, different people have different ways to have fun... ^_-
LOL, I know.

Yes, I've heard about it but still it felt weird...
Since my bloodtype doesn't match at all with what's said in this (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art22988.asp) I don't think I'm going to believe in this sort of things much... -_-

It's nonsense. :)

I agree!

Hmm, still on the height question, just out of curiosity, what heights have you thought of for the CCD characters in your universe?

YES. My main difficulty with buying trousers has something to do with that. A woman can't have wide hips and not be fat, apparently, because my trousers will fit fine around the hips, be loose as hell around the waist and thighs. *sigh* And even with these setbacks men's shorts/trousers are still more comfortable.

My perception of them is severely screwed. Since manga shows them as teenagers, but I perceive them as adults in my universe, I just don't have any numbers.

I was wondering what CLAMP made of them, so I asked JJ above, but I frankly accepted my weirdness in their case. :)

Yeah, I sort of adapted them in my mind to your universe, which includes their heights. I'll keep my eye on JJ's post, see how much I've deviated.

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Physicist on the Rampage

On behalf of the Sumeragi Twins...

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