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If you followed my writings once in a while, you probably noticed that I'm one of one those entirely nitpicking persons who like to have their facts straight before starting to play with them. In this context, the conundrum of the Sumeragi Twins - specifically Subaru and Hokuto - was the most prominent detail left in limbo for quite a long time.
About Subaru and Hokuto.
Please keep in mind that I'm no geneticist - and certainly no specialist in twins - when reading the following!
They look alike, yet are of different gender (gendermixed twins). Fanlore often considers them identical twins, which would account to monozygotic twins (from one egg) making them gendermixed monozygotic twins (scientific article on Pubmed), which is not entirely impossible, but comes with a baggage of problems. Most notably, it requires not one but two genetic defects to come to bear: the twin pair needs to have an additional X-chromosome (XXY) and the Y chromosome must be inactive in one of them, which would then develop as a healthy female, leaving the male (Subaru) with an additional X chromosome. Both conditions are extremely rare (and monozygotic twins to start with are also).
In addition, the additional X chromosome in the male is likely to cause a low (or non-existent) fertility and lengthened limbs (which makes me wonder about later CLAMP works - esp. the xxxHolic guys - but I digress). These conditions mustn't be severe, but are likely to exist in XXY males. There are other effects listed as well, but those weren't found as conclusive as these, as far as I could find out.
A high price just to make sure that the two of them truly look alike while having different gender.
While bizygotic (from two different eggs, thus not identical) twins mustn't look alike - in fact, they can look totally different - a high likeliness is not uncommon, considering that they typically stem from the same genetic source. (Bizygotic twins with different fathers are possible, but again require additional conditions to be met, making them less likely to happen.)
Studies on identical twins are an important tool to determine what is a genetic and what is an environmental effect on the human development. Quite a few of these studies conducted before genetic testing became available had to be withdrawn, because the subjects turned out not to be identical twins when they were tested genetically later.
As far as I know from the German and English translations of TB and X, CLAMP never explicitly stated Subaru and Hokuto to be identical twins (thus monozygotic). The translation stayed safely with "twins". Personally, I prefer the more likely - and for Subaru more healthy - solution of bizygotic gendermixed twins in this context.
I ignored the Sumeragi/Kamui twinship, because I don't follow Tsubasa at all and only heard of it via fantalks. (However, their status is obvious: bizygotic, non-gendermixed.)
And now I contemplate Subaru with mustache stubble...
...drool!
About Subaru and Hokuto.
Please keep in mind that I'm no geneticist - and certainly no specialist in twins - when reading the following!
They look alike, yet are of different gender (gendermixed twins). Fanlore often considers them identical twins, which would account to monozygotic twins (from one egg) making them gendermixed monozygotic twins (scientific article on Pubmed), which is not entirely impossible, but comes with a baggage of problems. Most notably, it requires not one but two genetic defects to come to bear: the twin pair needs to have an additional X-chromosome (XXY) and the Y chromosome must be inactive in one of them, which would then develop as a healthy female, leaving the male (Subaru) with an additional X chromosome. Both conditions are extremely rare (and monozygotic twins to start with are also).
In addition, the additional X chromosome in the male is likely to cause a low (or non-existent) fertility and lengthened limbs (which makes me wonder about later CLAMP works - esp. the xxxHolic guys - but I digress). These conditions mustn't be severe, but are likely to exist in XXY males. There are other effects listed as well, but those weren't found as conclusive as these, as far as I could find out.
A high price just to make sure that the two of them truly look alike while having different gender.
While bizygotic (from two different eggs, thus not identical) twins mustn't look alike - in fact, they can look totally different - a high likeliness is not uncommon, considering that they typically stem from the same genetic source. (Bizygotic twins with different fathers are possible, but again require additional conditions to be met, making them less likely to happen.)
Studies on identical twins are an important tool to determine what is a genetic and what is an environmental effect on the human development. Quite a few of these studies conducted before genetic testing became available had to be withdrawn, because the subjects turned out not to be identical twins when they were tested genetically later.
As far as I know from the German and English translations of TB and X, CLAMP never explicitly stated Subaru and Hokuto to be identical twins (thus monozygotic). The translation stayed safely with "twins". Personally, I prefer the more likely - and for Subaru more healthy - solution of bizygotic gendermixed twins in this context.
I ignored the Sumeragi/Kamui twinship, because I don't follow Tsubasa at all and only heard of it via fantalks. (However, their status is obvious: bizygotic, non-gendermixed.)
And now I contemplate Subaru with mustache stubble...
...drool!
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Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 16:40 (UTC)From:Out of curiosity how tall are your Subaru and Seishiro if you ever though at that? I don't think I remember it being mentioned...
Good luck for Decagram since we're around end of FM and I know endings are the most troublesome thing usually (at least for me they are... :P)!
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 16:55 (UTC)From:Subaru: 173 - 176 cm as an adult.
But that's just a rule of thumb. I only ever needed their size relation, which - judged by the images in X-16 on Rainbow Bridge before their fight starts - has Subaru about half a head smaller than Seishiro. That's a difference of about 10 cm.
Thank you, but it's only the ending of FM, not the ending of the Decagram, so it's actually just a little break. ;)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 17:18 (UTC)From:^_______________^
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 17:35 (UTC)From:I've never been to Tokyo, but if public transports are dimensioned similar to Singapore, Seishiro should do okay in the subway (though I was only only a two fingers away from the roof). And he better wears _very flat_ shoes in case he ever has to get on a bus. ;)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 17:54 (UTC)From:I've never been on Singapore or Tokyo for the matter and I know I should take in account they have a different standard age but when I look at CLAMP manga Seishiro looks so tall... when here his height would be perfectly normal...
I wonder how tiny Kamui is since everyone says he's pretty short... (in TRC he and Subaru looked about the same but I'm not sure if the same is applied to XKamui and TBSubaru)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 18:10 (UTC)From:Personally, I think of him as 155 or 156 cm, given that height judged when sitting has a larger error margin.
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-10 20:56 (UTC)From:So I went to check on CLAMP In Wonderland 1&2 [Precious Edition] Book and yes, there's Kamui's height. It turned out Kamui is 162 cm so, since Subaru is 163 in TB Subaru's taller ^_- (No idea if it interests you but Fuma is 178, Yuto 180 and Satsuki 160... I though Fuma to be taller than Yuto... and Satsuki's rather short too...)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 07:02 (UTC)From:Thank you for the other size infos. Aside from having fix numbers now, they confirm my overall assessment of Kigai being the one closest to Sei in size (discounting the bear Kusanagi).
Do you by chance happen to have numbers for the CCD staff in X? I'm curious, whether or not my perception of size is skewed as much as my perception of age there. :-)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 13:23 (UTC)From:Not yet. I'm searching for it and it's possible adult-Akira's height was mentioned somewhere in some '20 Mensou' gadget or interview but, so far, no luck.
They don't even figure in the movie cast so they'ut of the group picture in which you can see more or less the character's heights...
Nokoru in the manga is apparently more than half a head taller than Kamui so a good guess could be 162+15=173 (though the difference doesn't seem so big in Vol 16... has Kamui finally grown up?). In vol 14 though Sorata looks taller than Nokoru with Souh taller than Sorata.
In Vol 10 he looks as the shortest of the three with Suoh being the tallest (Suoh looks taller than Akira in Vol 16 too), but since they aren't shoulder to shoulder, it can be just an impression (in vol 8 Suoh and Akira seemed to have the same height).
On an unrelated note Keiichi looks like he's a head taller than Kamui so around 172cm probably more since he's more often than not bowing down to be closer to him... so he's likely even taller tahn it looks... (somehow this make me feel as if Kamui is even shorter than he is...)
And now you made me wonder... which was your guess for the boys?
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 13:48 (UTC)From:My perception - which has nothing whatsoever to do with canon in this regard - is Nokoru being probably two to three finger widths smaller than Seishiro, but taller than Subaru. Suoh being equal or slightly above to Seishiro. Akira didn't feature that much, yet.
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 14:15 (UTC)From:Oddly enough I like him. Maybe because I think Subaru as a kid should have been pretty similar to him only more shy and not such a good cook (and, of course, not a thief either... :P)
Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 14:21 (UTC)From:Re: JJBlue here...
Date: 2010-04-11 15:46 (UTC)From: